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@sickburnbro @nugger What's his net worth little niggy? People with that much money do not "cash out" lightly. Even if the asset they're holding the wealth in is likely to drop it would have to drop more than the rate of taxation for it to be worth it (assuming they couldn't roll it into another asset). This is common practice when you're that rich. When people that rich liquidate an asset, it makes the financial news.
@john_darksoul @nugger If you are rich there are a lot of ways to make the money work. It's just a simple fact of things.

I'm sure he could for instance, dock the yacht, skip most maintenance, lay off staff and save 10 million a year.

Using assets as collateral is just a high class version of pawn shops. The only difference is that you tend to know the bankers so they'll put an extra 20% of value on things to make numbers work.

But the more critical point is: if you are 10mil in total net worth more more - why are you even taking out a *personal* loan?

If you've buying a super expensive house, well that's it's own collateral.
@sickburnbro I don't want to be rude to you, but are you aware of the fact that wealthy people utilize significant amounts of leverage to avoid paying taxes? I'm not trying to insult you, I just want to keep the thread on track with the OP. Do you understand that that is a thing that happens and it doesn't just happen a little it happens a lot?
@WandererUber In theory it's not bad. No one should be taxed to the level that they are currently. But a system that allows these people to run roughshod over the society they are meant to be stewards of needs to be done away with. So under the current conditions, things like offshoring, hiring immigrants, and indeed, not paying taxes (equivalent to what would be expected) should be punished by death. They've used their wealth to separate their fates from that of their countrymen. They should die for it.
@WandererUber The tax issue was operating off one set of hypothetical constraints. "Nothing in the system changes but we really really really want to address the issue of not being able to tax extremely rich people who hold assets instead of operating under traditional taxable means"

The "why is this bad" is pretty easy to say. Wealthy people being able to continually insulate themselves from the poor decisions they make has to be addressed. "Wait you guys actually PAY taxes???" In effect, if you think it's bad then THEY need to think it's bad or it won't ever be good. I pay taxes, so I want Bezos to pay taxes, so maybe someone will do something about how much tax I pay.
@john_darksoul >The "why is this bad" is pretty easy to say.

>if you think it's bad then THEY need to think it's bad or it won't ever be good. I pay taxes, so I want Bezos to pay taxes

yeah well I mean I guess I am being a pedant now, but the reason for this line of thinking is what I was asking about in the first place. I really don't get the mentality.
You could just as easily say
"Jeff Bezos doesn't pay taxes, so I want to also not pay taxes" but you don't and I want to understand why?
@john_darksoul Dude okay I already said I'd stop if it's annoying to you
I asked "what is your reasoning for making them pay instead of not paying yourself" and there's nothing here in the entire conversation
You've brought a lot of other stuff that we agree on into it but I was unable to drill down into what actually motivates this position

I've ragebaited myself at this point. I don't know WHY it is so difficult to receive an answer to the actual thing I am asking about on the fedi, but it often happens. On that much, we agree.
@WandererUber

Ok I'm going to do some order of ops here.

>I make an OP that operates under some assumptions
>nugger quotes making the is/ought distinction (if only it were so easy))
>sbb comes in with some stupid unrelated bullshit so I ask if he's aware of the "problem" the op mentions because (in my estimation) he's missed the forest for the trees
>you ask me "why is this even bad"
Answer: It isn't if we had a cohesive noble class, but because we don't it would be good to pressure them if we want to take the current tax system seriously.
>Again this answer is "ought" under constraints, but we are now shifting goal posts from the OP because we are moving towards reasoning (upstream of the OP). Why? Because we're moving past the "is" of the current conditions. "Why doesn't everyone pay less" because we are slaves that have to support niggers and jewish wars. So we (little people) cannot pay less. It's a silly question, but answered it anyway.
>The next post is more less a restatement of your original question.
>I answer further upstream of the OP (we are now on a different field) the goal posts have shifted. I don't really know what you want from me here. The conversation is now in a different place.

This is my reading of the conversation. I don't know how I'm supposed to take "goalpost shifter" seriously here. I think a lot of issues of hellthreads arise where people talk past each other due to having is/ought problems and this one was a bit weirder because the OP was highlighting an is/ought solution that would a be a minor compromise to the "is" and not something I think is a definitive good which then devolved, but I don't believe I took it there.
@john_darksoul sorry I just have autism.
I can't bridge the gap in your reasoning between
>the elites are hostile
>therefore we need to pressure them to pay more taxes
>Why can't we pressure them to let US pay less taxes you ask? We are slaves

First of all, I don't see how the elites being hostile relates to tax policy at all. If they are hostile and pay taxes they will still be hostile and you will still need to kill them, so why all the rigamarole?

Why is them paying taxes even desirable at all. I understand that Jeff Bezos should be in trouble for offshoring, but not why he needs to pay exorbitant tax. Why is that good? You're saying it's better if the government (also hostile) has the money? Why?

We can't make our own taxes lower because we are slaves, but we can make theirs higher? Why?

And I understand the is ought, but if we CAN'T do either, then we are back to the original thing I was thinking about, which was "is it bad" in the abstract.
@WandererUber

I had to go to my computer to answer this because it's annoying to type so much on my phone.

The OP's purpose is to highlight that the nature of the current government is completely misaligned with things the average person cares about. In this case, the average person is upset that wealthy people pay less taxes as a percentage of wealth than they do. I am making a statement that the government could do something about this as at least one method they use to avoid taxation is well known and easily identifiable, but they choose not to because it's not actually a problem they want to solve (even though people care about it). In fact, floating suggestions like an asset tax is just a method to get lower income asset holders nervous about ANY potential changes.

That was the scope of the OP. Now we're asking questions about what is good or bad, which falls outside the original scope. I'm gonna try to be as explicit as possible where I can be.

The first question is "is it bad that wealthy people aren't paying more taxes?"

Yes.

I believe it is bad that the wealthy have successfully insulated themselves from the people they are meant rule in the benefit of.

"It's better the government also has the money? They're also hostile."

Yes.

The point of the OP was highlighting that the (hostile) government ignores the issue because the (hostile) wealthy are in league with each other. If the government did actually target the wealthy in ways that really hurt them financially it would imply there was some disruption happening. This is way into hypotheticals now, and I'm not trying to present this as a "hopeful step forward." Just that in the even that chud's law has already been violated (government targeting the elite class) that this would be some kind of an improvement, insomuch that ANY change in the current status quo could be construed as an improvement.

"We can't lower our taxes but we can increase there taxes?"

The point of the OP was to make the case that the government has the ability to tax this class of people, and opts not to do so. A primary assumption here is that no, the government cannot lower spending therefore lowering lower/middle class people's taxes to be more in line with wealthy people's is not possible.

Conversation spiraled around this point because I made an additional point that the wealthy class in both insular and hostile, so making them feel the effects of their hostile behavior could disrupt their insular nature. The point I think you're making here is that if you have the power to do one you have the power to do the other. I don't actually think this is true. From the current status it seems to me that increasing taxes even marginally on the moneyed classes is easier than lowering them. Stuff like this already happens to a degree, which is why people even talk about wealth flight.

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@john_darksoul Sorry for the late reply. I didn't get notified and missed this.

I guess it's a pragmatism thing for you then?
I wouldn't necessarily agree that paying low taxes is what insulated them from their bad decisions, but that's just a meaningless nitpick.

It sounded quite like an ideological thing in your reply to sbb (who did miss the mark, I agree)
>From the current status it seems to me that increasing taxes even marginally on the moneyed classes is easier than lowering them.
I think you gave a perfect counter-example right after
>wealth flight
so my conclusion would be that it's not possible and they know it's not and they know who this actually hurts, which is who they want to hurt.

I see where you're coming from now
@WandererUber Yea I had a better response typed out. The taxes thing is one example of the insular nature of the wealthy, but not the entire issue.

The contradiction is true, but this has more to do with the issues presented in the OP. If the government wanted to tax them AND prevent wealth flight they could. The Chinese provide an example of this with capital controls.