the small shiver of disgust every time i hear the word 'content'
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@lain Still have no idea what Evan of SWF meant by "creator content" lacking on fedi.
@phnt i think they really just mean "we want egirls on here with a million followers" and i guess, yeah ok, but why? as bao said, the fediverse successfully kept normie npcs away by having two @s instead of one.
i think that's one of the fundmental split personality issues in the fediverse. people say they don't want normies on here, but they also say that normies are retarded for not coming here because it's clearly objectively better. it's either / or. is this a secret club or is this a 200 million user network?
i think that's one of the fundmental split personality issues in the fediverse. people say they don't want normies on here, but they also say that normies are retarded for not coming here because it's clearly objectively better. it's either / or. is this a secret club or is this a 200 million user network?
@lain @phnt
artificial virality and fake trend manipulation are how a subset of creators make a ton of money on centralized platforms. thinking you could be recipient of that drives a bunch of the lesser creators who toil on the edge of quitting. the platform shapes the output completely for its profit. we don't have that mechanism so why would a creator come here instead. every time they try they find out their organic audience is a lot smaller.
artificial virality and fake trend manipulation are how a subset of creators make a ton of money on centralized platforms. thinking you could be recipient of that drives a bunch of the lesser creators who toil on the edge of quitting. the platform shapes the output completely for its profit. we don't have that mechanism so why would a creator come here instead. every time they try they find out their organic audience is a lot smaller.
@sun @phnt i think that's a sort of adversarial framing already, tons of people have millions of real fans and real communities that care about them. why would they switch to a network that's hostile to them? and if you tell people 'well the advantage of this vs twitter is that nobody you care about is here, but you can run your own server with zero users', that's a hard sell as well.
coming back to bao, she wrote that the fediverse is 'just twitter', and i think she's very wrong about that. not even pleroma is 'just mastodon'. i can detect the software of the user on the other end of a fedi thread with high certainty just from their posting style. all these seemingly inconsequential technological and sociological differences create different communities and we should probably not try to social engineer them too much.
i think we should keep building, but i don't think we should keep building for audiences that don't want to be here and that we don't want here. and i think we should completely ignore all foundations, standards bodies and other weirdo commies who want to steal our precious bodily fluids
coming back to bao, she wrote that the fediverse is 'just twitter', and i think she's very wrong about that. not even pleroma is 'just mastodon'. i can detect the software of the user on the other end of a fedi thread with high certainty just from their posting style. all these seemingly inconsequential technological and sociological differences create different communities and we should probably not try to social engineer them too much.
i think we should keep building, but i don't think we should keep building for audiences that don't want to be here and that we don't want here. and i think we should completely ignore all foundations, standards bodies and other weirdo commies who want to steal our precious bodily fluids
@lain @phnt they have real fans but the platform is actually a star maker system whether or not you deserved that audience. it works the other way too, if you use youtube and you rack up a million subscribers but they don't like you, they'll just suppress your trending and won't show your video popping up even to your subscribers. my point is its all fucking fake. its not fake here but its a hard sell for creators that are benefiting from the fakeness which is every creator you've heard of
@sun @lain Mastodon has trending hashtags, but I think they are network wide, for the "known network" of that instance. Hashtags could have been really great for trending and tagging posts, but Mastodon ruined it by making the search utterly unusable. Ideally there would also be "local trending tags" and "global trending tags", so an instance has more of a community feeling besides it just being a way to communicate with the whole network. The "instance" being a generic thing instead of a community building block hurts this network I think.
@i @lain @sun I fundamentally disagree with how groups currently work and it's probably a good idea barely anybody knows that Pleroma has them. They are a prime target for uncontrollable spam. Kinda like relays, but the effects can get delivered directly to a user's sometimes even home timelines.
If I were to design groups for AP, I would make a Group Actor with a posts OrderedCollection and a list of Actors who can manually Add and Remove Objects to the Collection. With the ability to set certain instances/Actors as automatic approval. You POST to an inbox, if you are in the auto approve list, the instance automatically adds that Object to the Collection. You aren't in the auto approve list, you get put in a mod queue. Viewing that group would be simply fetching the first X number of pages/posts in it, which can remote instances keep in some cache.
If I were to design groups for AP, I would make a Group Actor with a posts OrderedCollection and a list of Actors who can manually Add and Remove Objects to the Collection. With the ability to set certain instances/Actors as automatic approval. You POST to an inbox, if you are in the auto approve list, the instance automatically adds that Object to the Collection. You aren't in the auto approve list, you get put in a mod queue. Viewing that group would be simply fetching the first X number of pages/posts in it, which can remote instances keep in some cache.
@phnt @i @lain @sun honk understand pleroma chats tho. I don't think we should cooperate, mastodon sure won't support jack shit (see: emoji reacts); lemmy/peertube/writeas have completely different use case, gotosocial/iceshrimp etc lack features that need to be implemented first; misskey just like mastodon, live in their own to timezone (don't support multiple emoji reacts per user) + language barrier.
We can spend years deliberating how to do the thing and waiting for others to cooperate or we could do some basic MVP, iterate on it and hope others will follow suit.
I don't think Pleroma Chats are bad, they are just underimplemented and lack groupchat support because no groups I guess.
We can spend years deliberating how to do the thing and waiting for others to cooperate or we could do some basic MVP, iterate on it and hope others will follow suit.
I don't think Pleroma Chats are bad, they are just underimplemented and lack groupchat support because no groups I guess.
@hj @i @lain @sun I disagree.
Look, Pleroma is in no position to bake a feature, and say "take it, or leave it" and expect everyone interested to take it, or pull a Mastodon and force it on everyone through, the shear number of users. If you want to do groups properly, for which there is interest in the FEP community and also in the Mastodon community which used guppe quite a lot. I think it would best not to half-ass it and deal with the consequences later.
This mentality is how we got to the point where there are 3 different ways to federate emoji reactions (Pleroma EmojiReact, Misskey's _misskey-emoji and someone else already did Like with an emoji field in JSON). Same issue with quotes, Akkoma/Pleroma quoteURI, Misskey _misskey-quote and now Mastodon's Quote Activity. How did we get here, nothing was ever documented and no specification how it works written so someone that lived in the Mastodon vacuum had no idea that Pleroma does EmojiReact.
That's the whole point of FEPs. It's a place for discussion about AP extensions for people that care. There's no process to get in besides write a spec and implement later. If we want to fix this messed protocol and do it properly, collaboratively, and not waster our time, this is the way to go. It doesn't have take years, because the window for a FEP to be "finalized" is a year after the last update or there abouts. It won't take literal years.
I don't think Pleroma Chats are dead, nor do I think they are bad, but there is no documentation on how they are supposed to work in AP, so very few implemented them. And how will you notify others that they exist if not by making a FEP and a somewhat high frequency issue tracker and announce them on activitypub.rocks.
cc @silverpill just because I've seen you talk about how good groups could work and I think my post above isn't completely stupid. And also sice FEPs got mentioned.
Look, Pleroma is in no position to bake a feature, and say "take it, or leave it" and expect everyone interested to take it, or pull a Mastodon and force it on everyone through, the shear number of users. If you want to do groups properly, for which there is interest in the FEP community and also in the Mastodon community which used guppe quite a lot. I think it would best not to half-ass it and deal with the consequences later.
This mentality is how we got to the point where there are 3 different ways to federate emoji reactions (Pleroma EmojiReact, Misskey's _misskey-emoji and someone else already did Like with an emoji field in JSON). Same issue with quotes, Akkoma/Pleroma quoteURI, Misskey _misskey-quote and now Mastodon's Quote Activity. How did we get here, nothing was ever documented and no specification how it works written so someone that lived in the Mastodon vacuum had no idea that Pleroma does EmojiReact.
That's the whole point of FEPs. It's a place for discussion about AP extensions for people that care. There's no process to get in besides write a spec and implement later. If we want to fix this messed protocol and do it properly, collaboratively, and not waster our time, this is the way to go. It doesn't have take years, because the window for a FEP to be "finalized" is a year after the last update or there abouts. It won't take literal years.
I don't think Pleroma Chats are dead, nor do I think they are bad, but there is no documentation on how they are supposed to work in AP, so very few implemented them. And how will you notify others that they exist if not by making a FEP and a somewhat high frequency issue tracker and announce them on activitypub.rocks.
cc @silverpill just because I've seen you talk about how good groups could work and I think my post above isn't completely stupid. And also sice FEPs got mentioned.
@phnt @i @lain @silverpill @hj @sun
> Look, Pleroma is in no position to bake a feature, and say "take it, or leave it" and expect everyone interested to take it, or pull a Mastodon and force it on everyone through, the shear number of users. If you want to do groups properly, for which there is interest in the FEP community and also in the Mastodon community which used guppe quite a lot. I think it would best not to half-ass it and deal with the consequences later.
oh yes the FEPs, that's much better. Where cooperation == "discuss things to death, and then Mastodon ends up controlling the outcome anyway".
Before: Mastodon forces it on everyone through shear number of users
Now: Mastodon pretends to cooperate with the FEP process, and then essentially has veto power so they force it on everyone through shear number of users.
Like their Quote Posts. Do you think if Pleroma, Akkoma, and Honk showed up in the FEP process and said "this is terrible, you shouldn't do quote posts this way and you especially should not be trying to design features at the federation level that limit/restrict interactions to posts because it's an honor system and won't work anyway", that they'd have listened? Three votes from three stakeholders in the fediverse mean nothing when we don't have the userbase size of Mastodon.
At this point we either seize our own destiny or accept our fate as shit on the boots of Mastodon.
> Look, Pleroma is in no position to bake a feature, and say "take it, or leave it" and expect everyone interested to take it, or pull a Mastodon and force it on everyone through, the shear number of users. If you want to do groups properly, for which there is interest in the FEP community and also in the Mastodon community which used guppe quite a lot. I think it would best not to half-ass it and deal with the consequences later.
oh yes the FEPs, that's much better. Where cooperation == "discuss things to death, and then Mastodon ends up controlling the outcome anyway".
Before: Mastodon forces it on everyone through shear number of users
Now: Mastodon pretends to cooperate with the FEP process, and then essentially has veto power so they force it on everyone through shear number of users.
Like their Quote Posts. Do you think if Pleroma, Akkoma, and Honk showed up in the FEP process and said "this is terrible, you shouldn't do quote posts this way and you especially should not be trying to design features at the federation level that limit/restrict interactions to posts because it's an honor system and won't work anyway", that they'd have listened? Three votes from three stakeholders in the fediverse mean nothing when we don't have the userbase size of Mastodon.
At this point we either seize our own destiny or accept our fate as shit on the boots of Mastodon.
@feld @phnt @hj @i @lain @silverpill @sun
> "discuss things to death, and then Mastodon ends up controlling the outcome anyway"
This is in your head. You can just ignore Mastodon.
> At this point we either seize our own destiny or accept our fate as shit on the boots of Mastodon.
Friendicazillahub is doing fine, last I heard. It's good to stay compatible but letting Mastodon shit on fedi hasn't done fedi any good: it just ensures that Mastodon continues to do whatever they want with no pushback.
> "discuss things to death, and then Mastodon ends up controlling the outcome anyway"
This is in your head. You can just ignore Mastodon.
> At this point we either seize our own destiny or accept our fate as shit on the boots of Mastodon.
Friendicazillahub is doing fine, last I heard. It's good to stay compatible but letting Mastodon shit on fedi hasn't done fedi any good: it just ensures that Mastodon continues to do whatever they want with no pushback.
@p @i @phnt @feld @lain @silverpill @hj @sun Misskey is just as opinionated as Mastodon but no one complains about Misskey; or, well, if there's reason to complain about Misskey the American Misskey users tend to create a solution, then syuilo either adapts it or doesn't, but Misskey doesn't direct activitypub with their decisions; they only direct Misskey.
@sun @vii @feld @hj @i @lain @phnt @silverpill Well, yeah, media.fse currently returns a 429 with the text "TELL SYUILO TO FIX HIS SHIT" and they way they did quote-posts is worse than any other proposed version but the current Pleroma one doesn't even put the link in the body so there's no graceful degradation.
@feld @hj @i @lain @phnt @silverpill @sun @vii
> Should it be default?
The default should maximize compatibility.
> Maybe, but it's ugly as hell
Subjective; the guts don't look ugly to some people (and, as evidenced by bopesox users' inability to realize who's tagged because that's hidden, some details are unavoidable ugliness).
But this should be something you do on the frontend, not the backend: you can hide it using CSS if the code is aware of it, and then code that isn't aware of it will see the URL instead of being randomly tagged and someone says "This is a great idea" and then you say "What is?" and they say "That thing you said!" and then if you are aware of how these things are structured, you might eventually put together that they have quoteposted. (Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the learning curve acting as a threshold and I also don't mind when Shit Gets Weird because it keeps fedi intriguing, but I think it's safe to say that your goals are mutually exclusive with those two things, like, I don't want to put words in your mouth but I think it's safe to say that most of the Pleroma devs are not trying to make fedi opaque and weird and are generally trying for the opposite.)
Like, the tag-lists being abridged can be altered in the frontend per-user, but if it were set by the originating server and the post body changed to "... +5 others" then that would be a presentation-level concern that was implemented on the backend and that you couldn't fix without rewriting messages on the backend, and that feels wrong. I don't think quote-posting is materially different: it's presentation. If it were metadata and you expected a sufficiently clever frontend to replace it inline, you could have commentary before or after or around the link(s).
> Should it be default?
The default should maximize compatibility.
> Maybe, but it's ugly as hell
Subjective; the guts don't look ugly to some people (and, as evidenced by bopesox users' inability to realize who's tagged because that's hidden, some details are unavoidable ugliness).
But this should be something you do on the frontend, not the backend: you can hide it using CSS if the code is aware of it, and then code that isn't aware of it will see the URL instead of being randomly tagged and someone says "This is a great idea" and then you say "What is?" and they say "That thing you said!" and then if you are aware of how these things are structured, you might eventually put together that they have quoteposted. (Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the learning curve acting as a threshold and I also don't mind when Shit Gets Weird because it keeps fedi intriguing, but I think it's safe to say that your goals are mutually exclusive with those two things, like, I don't want to put words in your mouth but I think it's safe to say that most of the Pleroma devs are not trying to make fedi opaque and weird and are generally trying for the opposite.)
Like, the tag-lists being abridged can be altered in the frontend per-user, but if it were set by the originating server and the post body changed to "... +5 others" then that would be a presentation-level concern that was implemented on the backend and that you couldn't fix without rewriting messages on the backend, and that feels wrong. I don't think quote-posting is materially different: it's presentation. If it were metadata and you expected a sufficiently clever frontend to replace it inline, you could have commentary before or after or around the link(s).
@feld @hj @i @lain @phnt @silverpill @sun @vii Like, I don't know why quote-posting isn't just "links to object URLs embedded in the post" and then there's some metadata and some FEs could display the little card and go to the post/thread on click; that seems like it would be easier. Then you could do some frontend gunk for people to do it the expected way (Twitter-style) and that leaves you more flexibility on how these things work. Implementation might be easier, like, the backend just annotates the /objects/ URLs with the appropriate metadata when it is turning posts into links, right, lookup-by-object-URL is fast enough.
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