the small shiver of disgust every time i hear the word 'content'
Timeline
Post
Remote status
Context
15
@lain Still have no idea what Evan of SWF meant by "creator content" lacking on fedi.
@phnt i think they really just mean "we want egirls on here with a million followers" and i guess, yeah ok, but why? as bao said, the fediverse successfully kept normie npcs away by having two @s instead of one.
i think that's one of the fundmental split personality issues in the fediverse. people say they don't want normies on here, but they also say that normies are retarded for not coming here because it's clearly objectively better. it's either / or. is this a secret club or is this a 200 million user network?
i think that's one of the fundmental split personality issues in the fediverse. people say they don't want normies on here, but they also say that normies are retarded for not coming here because it's clearly objectively better. it's either / or. is this a secret club or is this a 200 million user network?
@lain @phnt
artificial virality and fake trend manipulation are how a subset of creators make a ton of money on centralized platforms. thinking you could be recipient of that drives a bunch of the lesser creators who toil on the edge of quitting. the platform shapes the output completely for its profit. we don't have that mechanism so why would a creator come here instead. every time they try they find out their organic audience is a lot smaller.
artificial virality and fake trend manipulation are how a subset of creators make a ton of money on centralized platforms. thinking you could be recipient of that drives a bunch of the lesser creators who toil on the edge of quitting. the platform shapes the output completely for its profit. we don't have that mechanism so why would a creator come here instead. every time they try they find out their organic audience is a lot smaller.
@sun @phnt i think that's a sort of adversarial framing already, tons of people have millions of real fans and real communities that care about them. why would they switch to a network that's hostile to them? and if you tell people 'well the advantage of this vs twitter is that nobody you care about is here, but you can run your own server with zero users', that's a hard sell as well.
coming back to bao, she wrote that the fediverse is 'just twitter', and i think she's very wrong about that. not even pleroma is 'just mastodon'. i can detect the software of the user on the other end of a fedi thread with high certainty just from their posting style. all these seemingly inconsequential technological and sociological differences create different communities and we should probably not try to social engineer them too much.
i think we should keep building, but i don't think we should keep building for audiences that don't want to be here and that we don't want here. and i think we should completely ignore all foundations, standards bodies and other weirdo commies who want to steal our precious bodily fluids
coming back to bao, she wrote that the fediverse is 'just twitter', and i think she's very wrong about that. not even pleroma is 'just mastodon'. i can detect the software of the user on the other end of a fedi thread with high certainty just from their posting style. all these seemingly inconsequential technological and sociological differences create different communities and we should probably not try to social engineer them too much.
i think we should keep building, but i don't think we should keep building for audiences that don't want to be here and that we don't want here. and i think we should completely ignore all foundations, standards bodies and other weirdo commies who want to steal our precious bodily fluids
@lain @phnt they have real fans but the platform is actually a star maker system whether or not you deserved that audience. it works the other way too, if you use youtube and you rack up a million subscribers but they don't like you, they'll just suppress your trending and won't show your video popping up even to your subscribers. my point is its all fucking fake. its not fake here but its a hard sell for creators that are benefiting from the fakeness which is every creator you've heard of
@sun @lain Mastodon has trending hashtags, but I think they are network wide, for the "known network" of that instance. Hashtags could have been really great for trending and tagging posts, but Mastodon ruined it by making the search utterly unusable. Ideally there would also be "local trending tags" and "global trending tags", so an instance has more of a community feeling besides it just being a way to communicate with the whole network. The "instance" being a generic thing instead of a community building block hurts this network I think.
@i @lain @sun I fundamentally disagree with how groups currently work and it's probably a good idea barely anybody knows that Pleroma has them. They are a prime target for uncontrollable spam. Kinda like relays, but the effects can get delivered directly to a user's sometimes even home timelines.
If I were to design groups for AP, I would make a Group Actor with a posts OrderedCollection and a list of Actors who can manually Add and Remove Objects to the Collection. With the ability to set certain instances/Actors as automatic approval. You POST to an inbox, if you are in the auto approve list, the instance automatically adds that Object to the Collection. You aren't in the auto approve list, you get put in a mod queue. Viewing that group would be simply fetching the first X number of pages/posts in it, which can remote instances keep in some cache.
If I were to design groups for AP, I would make a Group Actor with a posts OrderedCollection and a list of Actors who can manually Add and Remove Objects to the Collection. With the ability to set certain instances/Actors as automatic approval. You POST to an inbox, if you are in the auto approve list, the instance automatically adds that Object to the Collection. You aren't in the auto approve list, you get put in a mod queue. Viewing that group would be simply fetching the first X number of pages/posts in it, which can remote instances keep in some cache.
Replies
15
@sun @i @lain You cannot federate tags effectively. There's no mechanism to follow a tag and receive all the posts for that tag. You need some Actor for effective federation of tags.
That's really the only reason why groups would be different from (hash)tags, which you can also follow now btw (not implemented in FE though).
That's really the only reason why groups would be different from (hash)tags, which you can also follow now btw (not implemented in FE though).
@feld @i @lain @sun I think that can work, but depending on a relay service for federation isn't great I think. It would have to be done with the FASP Mastodon thing or similar, which would centralize it.
Otherwise how would that relay know about posts that didn't mention it and how would instances know about that relay when nobody mentioned it from their view. Groups have a similar issue, but since they would be effectively a user, you can mention that user like any other. Posting # asdf is arbitrary.
I think what I have in mind is more network-wide meanwhile what you have in mind is similar to what relays currently are, multiple of relays an instance subscribes to.
Otherwise how would that relay know about posts that didn't mention it and how would instances know about that relay when nobody mentioned it from their view. Groups have a similar issue, but since they would be effectively a user, you can mention that user like any other. Posting # asdf is arbitrary.
I think what I have in mind is more network-wide meanwhile what you have in mind is similar to what relays currently are, multiple of relays an instance subscribes to.
@phnt @i @lain @sun
> Otherwise how would that relay know about posts that didn't mention it and how would instances know about that relay when nobody mentioned it from their view.
You're missing the point. Of course this is opt-in. The entire ecosystem must be opt-in. Lots of features in the fediverse will have to be opt-in, otherwise what do we have? The same problem as Bluesky with their giant firehose of shit nobody can handle. We'll never have a perfect shared global view/state of the fediverse and we wouldn't want that anyway.
So you build this into something like Pleroma's backend:
- configure one or more hashtag relays in Pleroma's backend, could have one configured by default operated by Pleroma's team or a trusted community. It's a new special thing, not related to existing relay functionality.
- when users follows hashtags, the backend subscribes to the hashtag endpoints on those relays automatically
- when users make posts with a hashtag, they're automatically CC'd to those hashtag relays so other instances subscribed can receive them
that's all it takes and it would work. And you kind of need it to function this way because people are going to want choices for moderation preferences, etc. e.g., Someone's going to post porn with the #linux hashtag and people are going to want that filtered, etc. Yes it's an additional moderation layer above the instance level, but that's fine.
This definitely means that if you're sending a hashtag to one of these specialized relays and nobody is subscribing to that hashtag it will not be seen by any other instance. But that's OK.
> Otherwise how would that relay know about posts that didn't mention it and how would instances know about that relay when nobody mentioned it from their view.
You're missing the point. Of course this is opt-in. The entire ecosystem must be opt-in. Lots of features in the fediverse will have to be opt-in, otherwise what do we have? The same problem as Bluesky with their giant firehose of shit nobody can handle. We'll never have a perfect shared global view/state of the fediverse and we wouldn't want that anyway.
So you build this into something like Pleroma's backend:
- configure one or more hashtag relays in Pleroma's backend, could have one configured by default operated by Pleroma's team or a trusted community. It's a new special thing, not related to existing relay functionality.
- when users follows hashtags, the backend subscribes to the hashtag endpoints on those relays automatically
- when users make posts with a hashtag, they're automatically CC'd to those hashtag relays so other instances subscribed can receive them
that's all it takes and it would work. And you kind of need it to function this way because people are going to want choices for moderation preferences, etc. e.g., Someone's going to post porn with the #linux hashtag and people are going to want that filtered, etc. Yes it's an additional moderation layer above the instance level, but that's fine.
This definitely means that if you're sending a hashtag to one of these specialized relays and nobody is subscribing to that hashtag it will not be seen by any other instance. But that's OK.
@sun @i @phnt i think this whole idea is kind of nonsense. people say they 'want groups' and then people invent some mechanism from first fedi principles. it must start at the other end, we first need to have a good idea of what feature we actually want to have (and 'groups' isn't a good idea, it's just a first inspiration) and then go back to he substrate and figure out how we can make it happen.