Egregoros · Phoenix Framework

Post

Remote status

Context

rose ☭

postmarketos had to switch to systemd to be able to offer an immutable distribution (ignoring that gardenhouse exists, since its pretty new) to avoid having to implement a bunch of custom stuff
im sorry but how did only a minority of people look at the monopoly systemd has and realize that its actually not good to have that
everyone always complains about google and meta and microsoft having a monopoly but with systemd its completely okay?
systemd is essentially doing the same thing as those companies, locking features into their own massive codebase through dependencies that are completely unwarranted

Lucy

@30p87@chaos.social remote

@rose You could say the exact same about the kernel itself.

Replying to @30p87@chaos.social

rose ☭

@rose@snac.pinkro.se remote

@30p87@chaos.social okay?
but I didn't talk about the kernel, I talked about Userspace, why bring up a kernel here

Replies

Replying to @rose@snac.pinkro.se

Lucy

@30p87@chaos.social remote

@rose And why does that change anything? It's still a monopoly almost everyone is bound to. What if <controversal change in systemd> would be done in the kernel? Would you switch to BSD?

Replying to @30p87@chaos.social

Phantasm

@phnt@fluffytail.org remote

@30p87 @rose
>And why does that change anything?
The kernel doesn't have a history of making highly controversial decisions for 3 decades. systemd does.

>Would you switch to BSD?
If userspace of Linux gets unusable, which it currently is on that track, then yes. I will switch and go elsewhere.

Replying to @30p87@chaos.social

kimapr

@kimapr@ublog.kimapr.net remote

@30p87 @rose one bad thing is too difficult to combat, so we should all give up and stop doing anything good for the world

this is how you sound

Replying to @30p87@chaos.social

rose ☭

@rose@snac.pinkro.se remote

once again, i didnt talk about the kernel, i talked about systemd/linux userspace
i bring it up because ive worked a lot on this, so i have good knowledge about the topic
this isnt even about controversial changes, i dont understand what youre trying to achieve here

Replying to @rose@snac.pinkro.se

Lucy

@30p87@chaos.social remote

@rose Telling you that switching kernels is a lot harder than switching init systems, where most packages/programs already have integrations for. If you don't like systemd, you can switch from it. Most packages/programs have init scripts for alternative init systems. If your kernel does shit, you have to do everything from scratch. So complaining about systemd while ignoring the kernel looks more like attacking systemd than talking about monopolies.

Replying to @30p87@chaos.social

rose ☭

@rose@snac.pinkro.se remote

standards like posix allow users to switch kernels, I regularly switch between Linux and FreeBSD with no trouble

i am attacking systemd, because systemd is a monolopy in the linux world, and im working hard to try and rid them of that monopoly by reworking components to be more portable, i have had to do a lot of things from scratch because a lot of things are standards they defined for themselves

"i dislike the current monopoly systemd has on linux"
"yet you use the linux monopoly. curious. i am very smart"

Replying to @rose@snac.pinkro.se

toebeans ch. 🇨🇳

@coolbean@brain.worm.pink remote

@rose @30p87 we have other kernels sl4 and the bsds are literally right here

also hurd but we dont talk about hurd

Replying to @coolbean@brain.worm.pink

toebeans ch. 🇨🇳

@coolbean@brain.worm.pink remote

@rose @30p87 literally posting from openbsd right now my kernel is better than yours btw because it has plege() and unveil()

Replying to @coolbean@brain.worm.pink

Phantasm

@phnt@fluffytail.org remote

@coolbean @30p87 @rose Linux also has those under a different name. But we don't talk about those...

Replying to @phnt@fluffytail.org

toebeans ch. 🇨🇳

@coolbean@brain.worm.pink remote

@phnt @30p87 @rose the linux "equivalent" barely even qualifies as such. it has syscalls that can do the same thing but were designed not by committe but rather one of those infinite apes typing on a typewriter, but with a deadline and they just kinda had to pick the least bad draft at the end

Replying to @coolbean@brain.worm.pink

Phantasm

@phnt@fluffytail.org remote

@coolbean @30p87 @rose They are very Google-coded, yes.

Replying to @coolbean@brain.worm.pink

toebeans ch. 🇨🇳

@coolbean@brain.worm.pink remote

@phnt @30p87 @rose like literally the only project that uses them is android and they dont even use upstream kernels so you could LITERALLY just deprecate and remove them in favor of something better but noone does because noone working on linux cares about making an actually good kernel at this point

Replying to @coolbean@brain.worm.pink

toebeans ch. 🇨🇳

@coolbean@brain.worm.pink remote

@30p87 @phnt @rose like i think bwrap uses landlock? but thats due to lack of better options not a choice they'd probably be on board with rewriting it for unveil()

Replying to @coolbean@brain.worm.pink

Phantasm

@phnt@fluffytail.org remote

@coolbean @30p87 @rose systemd, zathura and web browsers all use seccomp. I don't know about landlock which admittedly is much nicer to use than seccomp, mostly because AppArmor and SELinux overshadowed it.

Replying to @phnt@fluffytail.org

toebeans ch. 🇨🇳

@coolbean@brain.worm.pink remote

@phnt @30p87 @rose i honestly forgot what seccomp was even called but yea i remember both being considerably more unwieldy than openbsd equivalent fwiw