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Caleb James DeLisle

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote
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Wild that literally nobody makes these things anymore.

20 years ago they were everywhere, $100.

Now there's no factories left. All of the high voltage electronics are kind of bespoke and there aren't really supply chains for them anymore, but you COULD make them again.

The real kicker is the tube, the color mask and phosphor coating is a disaster. And what's more, the machines that made them are now archaic. Even if you were able to get one, keeping it maintained and working properly is a skill unto itself. Generally production engineers will always build new lines using only current era (CNC) machines for which the spare parts and knowhow are widely available.

This is an important little lesson that technological capabilities are not to be taken for granted. 20 years is long enough for a technology to really basically just vanish and once it's gone, you would need to go through a whole new R&D process if you ever wanted to bring it back.

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Caleb James DeLisle

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote
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Getting a sample and taking it apart is probably better, but in either case - even when you know what you want to do, you still need to build machines that will do it reliably to a tight enough tolerance.

This was the same problem they faced when they wanted to re-construct the RocketDyne F-1 engine (which was used on the Saturn 5 rocket)
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Caleb James DeLisle

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote
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It's not really that we don't know how, there are not secrets. But building the machines that make them, and getting them to the precision level that is required - this is not so easy.

And it's not easy for *anyone*, because the old machines are not really workable anymore. Even if they haven't been scrapped, they're old and worn out and the people who knew how to make them work well are gone.
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Caleb James DeLisle

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote
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Again, we kind of know how those things worked. The problem is that machines of that era were very bespoke - designed for purpose. So those machines had a LOT of parts on them that are one-of-one and they have to be made by hand by a toolmaker. And then operating them is another headache because you have to develop a feel for how to make it work correctly to get the kind of results you want.

These days everybody uses more standardized stuff, robot arms and CNC machines. A lot of the finicky stuff and testing is all computerized, which means you don't need quite as much human know-how on the assembly line. But it means that if you wanted to make a CRT, you'd be better off just inventing the production line from scratch rather than trying to use the old machines...
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Parker Banks

Parker Banks

@parker@dsmc.space remote
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@cjd I've got a point plotter hidden away with a P15 phosphor. It has a fall (decay) time of 0.05 milliseconds to 0.1% of max luminance, and falls to 10% luminance in 0.003 milliseconds.

CRTs are still used in labs that study vision, since you can't get that sort of response time on an LCD display, and the interval at which pixels refresh are much more predictable when you're dealing with a single electron beam.
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Caleb James DeLisle

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote
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Agreed on everything except the "by design" part.

Any social upheaval mean the people who have the most are going to lose the most - because of course they will, they have the most to lose.

I think they're thinking that they're going to plan it and ride it out, but they're not smart and they will not. It's all just Weak Men making Hard Times.
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๏ผฎ๏ฝ‰๏ฝ๏ฝ‚๏ฝŒ๏ฝ…๏ฝ๏ฝ•๏ฝ :KitKat:

๏ผฎ๏ฝ‰๏ฝ๏ฝ‚๏ฝŒ๏ฝ…๏ฝ๏ฝ•๏ฝ :KitKat:

@niobleoum@nekosat.work remote
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@cjd @charliebrownau CRT is actually relatively "uncomplicated" technology. Looked up the luminophores that were used there, and they are basic too - doped zinc sulphide and yttria. The method for synthesis of these is usually Pecchini method, which is basically mixing few (commercially available) precursors in crucible and firing it in owen (I call it "idiot-proof", since I tend to work with much more sophisticated chemistry). The electronics part would be more tricky in my opinion, but maybe it's just because that's not my area of expertise. :nahidanerd:
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charliebrownau

charliebrownau

@charliebrownau@poa.st remote
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Im guessing you have never looked into Tartarian Empire and the mudflood reset

When goverment was 'founded' in the 1780-1800-1900s
it was designed to enslave the goyim
as a control method

No one rejected it because we were all new programmable sheeple
ready for instructions

Real Freedom hasnt been attempted yet
Replying to @niobleoum@nekosat.work
Caleb James DeLisle

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote
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Okay interesting. For the electronics, you would basically cheat and use a computer to drive it, because it can auto-tune everything.

Think like fuel injection vs. carburetor.

The high voltage side is something, but there's only one place that is high voltage, the rest is low, so most of it is not a big deal at all.
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Caleb James DeLisle

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote
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> never looked into Tartarian Empire

Yea, never heard of it. There's a lot of occult archeology though, much of it is obviously real because remains have been found.

> No one rejected it because we were all new programmable sheeple

Ther's the "weak men" again.
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Caleb James DeLisle

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote
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No but ages ago, Zed Shaw wrote an essay on that principle. Responsibility and power must be vested with the same person.

But in the case of a country, final responsibility rests with the military men - because that's who, in the realest sense possible, decides how things are going to work.
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PalePimp

PalePimp

@PalePimp@poa.st remote
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>>Wild that literally nobody makes these things anymore.

Because they don't scale. Try to make one 50" good luck.

Flat screens are such an improvement over CRTs that it makes my head hurt that anybody misses the old CRTs.

And I had not one but three +20" multi-sync CRTs back in the day, the moment LCD panels crossed the 1024x768 resolution threshold at 60hz it was game over for CRTs and good riddance.
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๏ผฎ๏ฝ‰๏ฝ๏ฝ‚๏ฝŒ๏ฝ…๏ฝ๏ฝ•๏ฝ :KitKat:

๏ผฎ๏ฝ‰๏ฝ๏ฝ‚๏ฝŒ๏ฝ…๏ฝ๏ฝ•๏ฝ :KitKat:

@niobleoum@nekosat.work remote
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@cjd @charliebrownau A skilled electrical engineer shouldn't have much problem getting it done. The most helpful part is that all the knowledge (papers and patents) you need to recreate this technology are available on internet or your average university library, hence it's not that much of a lost technology. Recreating Apollo program would be very tough though, as this is neither something "small" nor relatively uncomplicated, and a lot of technical aspects and know-how was never really publicized and people who had it are gone now. I would say that modern semiconductor industry and low-level programming are at the highest risk of becoming "lost". The first one is pretty much exclusive to few companies in the world and the level of know-how and technical culture required appears unsurmountable. The second is like a language, that less and less people speak, while the accumulating debt makes whole software industry technically bankrupt - in few years either nothing will work at all and we will "live with it", or we will re-write all the things from scratch, undoing last 30 years.
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PalePimp

PalePimp

@PalePimp@poa.st remote
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>>Oh I don't really miss them. And I don't really have an opinion about screen size because I don't watch TV at all.

I don't watch TV either but my twin 27" 120hz LCD panels I CAD on say hello. And the 52" TV I game on 4k send its regards.

>>It's more thinking about how a technology can be kind of "lost" and it's hard to bootstrap again.

It is not lost, it is 1000% impractical nowadays, two very different things, is like using cassette tapes in the age of digital computers with high definition audio and sophisticated audio file formats, or using floppies to exchange files in the age of the USB drive.

There are technologies like the CRTs that lose their "raison d'etre" once something else smaller and better is available, can you imagine a nintendo switch with a CRT? or a CRT in a combat jet? or a mobile phone with a CRT like the Pipboy?

Technologies that truly matter which are not irrelevant like the internal combustion engine, or how to manufacture tires not only aren't lost, they are being perfected all the time.
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CapitalB

CapitalB

@CapitalB@noauthority.social remote
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@cjd

*triggerrrred*

Recently I visited a museum with a much younger woman. She said we have to leave the room bc of the noise. What noise.... oh. Oh-oh. I cant hear it anymore. My phone showed in an FFT-app the uptick at 15.5kHz. Only a faint shishiishiish.

Fuck me. I amofficially old now.

Replying to @niobleoum@nekosat.work
Caleb James DeLisle

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote
Open link
I guess we have a bit the opposite skill sets.

Semiconductors have not too much risk of going away because while the most advanced process node is indeed very very high tech, the older process nodes are much less so, and they are the bulk of chip making.

There's even an open source 130nm process design kit called SkyWater, so a lot of the "secret sauce" is now not secret for that process.

Then low level programming, well, maybe there aren't that many of them, but I'm one, so for me it feels like everybody knows it...
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Caleb James DeLisle

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote
Open link
> Technologies that truly matter which are not irrelevant like the internal combustion engine, or how to manufacture tires not only aren't lost, they are being perfected all the time.

I was actually thinking that car-sized internal combustion engines, automatic transmissions, etc. are at risk of ending up the way of the CRT, because battery price and density keeps marching on every year so eventually it's really going to make no sense to have a car with an engine...
Replying to @niobleoum@nekosat.work
EdBoatConnoisseur

EdBoatConnoisseur

@EdBoatConnoisseur@poa.st remote
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a CRT display is so well documented and understood that the average radio technician from down south of rio grande can repair them within a day from almost any failure short of the motherboard breaking in half, when that happens the repair may take a week of fine soldering all the broken traces, not to mention epoxing the board together, i can attest from first hand experience to that one as back in highschool i had to help a classmate epoxy and solder his CRT board together after helping in accidentally breaking it...

the real engineering challenges are not on the circuitry of any given device, the circuitry of a microwave oven and the circuitry of an electrocardiogram machine are only "really different" in the quality of their building, otherwise the internal components will boil down to voltage transformer, resistors, capacitors, inductors, relays, diodes, LED display components, input switches and ICs, and the only things from that list that can vary wildly are the ICs, which outside of the display driver ICs and the ECG application specific ICs all other ones are either manufactured by texas instruments in guangzhou or are a modified clone from some chinese plant in chengdu, the real engineering challenge are the components that have input/output interaction with the external world, for a microwave oven that is the magnetron while for an ECG machine those components are the "electrode sensors" connected onto the patient, those are a challenge as the manufacturers have managed to build a pseudo-monopoly on the knowledge of how to manufacture and repair those components in a similar manner to the application specific ICs, if the magnetron on your microwave or the non generic made in china ICs on an ECG machine die you have no option but to buy replacements outright, even refurbishing is gatekept by the manufacturer.

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FourOh-LLC

FourOh-LLC

@FourOh-LLC@pkteerium.xyz remote
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if that would be the case, steam turbines would have been retired by now - but look, every power-plant from coal to gas to nuke is using steam. Replacing mature technologies is a lot harder than just coming up with the replacement, they tend to linger a few centuries side by side. Look at the Amish, they are quite content and successful with horses and the coach, the wagon.

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PalePimp

PalePimp

@PalePimp@poa.st remote
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Not the same situation with combustion engines, there are plenty of types of combustion engines that EVs can't replace, like the ones in air-planes, the ratio of energy/autonomy you can get on an agrarian tractor using Diesel for example (which can be manufactured easily from any oil) pretty much guarantees it will be with us forever.

Electric Vehicles can have some uses, but they aren't a clear cut better option for heavy duty.

Also think of generators... you use those when there is no electricity to generate it.

Now if some form of engine that's more compact and practical appeared yes, old engines would go the way of the dodo.
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Caleb James DeLisle

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote
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Counterpoint: CRT televisions.

Steam turbines in powerplants are still "state of the art". There is supercritical CO2 on the horizon, but it's still on the horizon.

Already certain engine parts are becoming hard to find, like flat-tappet lifters. Everyone has moved to roller lifters since ages ago, so flat-tappet nobody really makes them anymore - and of course there's China junk that is BAD BAD BAD because it's not hardened correctly and doesn't have the right crown and it will wipe your engine out on first start.

There's stuff like Chevy small block that you'll "always" be able to get rebuild kits for, but even already a lot of post-2000 cars are just not repairable enough that anyone is going to keep rebuild parts on the shelf after they age out.

What I can realistically see happening is engines become a classic / antique thing, and you need quite a bit of money to get one, and the replacement parts are also fairly expensive.
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PalePimp

PalePimp

@PalePimp@poa.st remote
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The CRT is just an electron gun that is fired at the back of a glass coated in a phosphorous substance that glows when hit by the beam.

Making a low refresh monochrome one like the ones we had in the 70s is trivial making small CRT tubes is fairly doable.

The technology is not lost, what is lost is the industry that made them, because it makes no sense to manufacture them anymore.
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Caleb James DeLisle

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote
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Diesel is going to last a long time because they're just super useful engines. As you point out, diesel is the only technology for portable generators with decent efficiency so even just that will be enough to keep them alive.

But I'm not saying internal combustion as a technology, but rather, "4 cylinder, front wheel drive, automatic transmission" type constructs that currently grow on trees, but are a very easy target for electrification...
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FourOh-LLC

FourOh-LLC

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I admit that batteries got a whole lot better, you showed that to me. But in my former life I was working on railway engines, and there are few ICE more trivial to construct and service than a diesel engine.

A battery-based power train is still rocket-science to make and service.

So there is that. I can see an underground industry where grinding the crank shaft, balancing the flywheel, machining the piston rings will be the only task require any true expertise. The rest can be bolted together and it will work.
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Caleb James DeLisle

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote
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Yeah and there's really no evidence that batteries are going to stop getting better. Lots of R&D pushing to make them better, and chemistry is a big big world.

There will probably come a point where it will make sense for trains, mostly because nobody cares how heavy a train engine is, so you can just stuff it with cheap batteries until you have enough.
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Technocore Patriot

Technocore Patriot

@sunbeam_rider@shitposter.world remote
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@cjd Yes I also find the process of technological replacement fascinating. Found one of my dad's university textbooks, it was about telecommunications and had a chapter dedicated to television. Suffice to say that chapter is obsolete, the chapters that are not obsolete in the book are all of those related to digital communications.

Also, didn't we forget how to make bricks like the romans did for like a thousand years? Rome fell and we just forgot how to build like them for a whole millennium.
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Technocore Patriot

Technocore Patriot

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@EdBoatConnoisseur @niobleoum @cjd @charliebrownau one thing is repairing/servicing them and another one is manufacturing them. The supply chains, economies of scale and know-how that made CRT manufacturing make sense simply aren't there anymore.

But can confirm these TVs are still being repaired by normal TV technicians instead of redditor amateurs, here and perhaps in the whole third world, them being cheap as fuck and the like. Just like how we still service rod brake roadster bicycles and Volkswagen beetles.
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Berk Berkman

Berk Berkman

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@cjd Flat-panel LCDs were meant to be a replacement for those hefty CRTs, then large rear-projection TVs further pushed them out (although a few still used small CRTs) because they were mostly huge at the time. Nowadays, those rear-projection TVs are just dated, but the fresnel lens in them could be useful for making solar death rays.
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EdBoatConnoisseur

EdBoatConnoisseur

@EdBoatConnoisseur@poa.st remote
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the volkswagen beetles are interesting, at least from what I've seen from mexico is that there are 2 camps, the collection models that everyone tries their hardest to maintain and fix in as original from factory state as possible and go for high prices (usually models from the 50s, 60s and mid 70s) and the cheap beater/mod blank canvass beetles which the mexicans go crazy modding (usually models from the late 70s onwards) into baja bugs and 4x4 pickup trucks to downright memes on wheels.

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