This program doesn't do anything? It is just a bunch of markdown files and a wrapper for LLMs with shell access?
And you're telling me that developing "skills" for this piece of shit is just writing a markdown file with instructions on how to do a thing?
People are mass buying overpriced Mac Mini computers just to play with A COLLECTION OF MARKDOWN FILES?
AI bubble has reached peak insanity.
RE: https://minidisc.tokyo/notes/aj7ffz404l
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@SuperDicq I set up a vm and used that and it worked great, people buying a mac for this are retarded
@sun@shitposter.world What do you mean it works great? You're sending a bunch of markdown files to an LLM API. It literally doesn't do anything special.
@SuperDicq @sun it builds its own tools. I had it develop custom things in node and python. The Markdown just tells it how to use the tools it built and what they're for.
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47@feld@friedcheese.us @sun@shitposter.world Isn't it infinitely more efficient to just share the code with other people instead of just sharing instructions on how to write the code?
Is this what the future is going to be like? No more software? Just every app being a markdown file and everyone running their own vibecoded version of it?
@SuperDicq @sun the future is going to be whatever the hell you want it to be
but there are plenty of apps/tools that have never existed before because nobody thought it was a problem worth solving, or there isn't a good enough product-market-fit
now you can make custom tools pretty easily to solve almost any problem you have. I have a ton of things I've wished for but never had the time to build, and now I can have those things solved quite easily.
It's liberating.
but there are plenty of apps/tools that have never existed before because nobody thought it was a problem worth solving, or there isn't a good enough product-market-fit
now you can make custom tools pretty easily to solve almost any problem you have. I have a ton of things I've wished for but never had the time to build, and now I can have those things solved quite easily.
It's liberating.
@feld@friedcheese.us @sun@shitposter.world I don't think it's very "liberating" to have a proprietary SaaSS API build software for you.
You what is actually liberating? The free software movement where people build code and share it with each other so you don't have to do everything yourself.
@SuperDicq @feld nobody's stopping you from sharing the code your openclaw wrote. I uploaded my delta chat gateway to my publoc git server
@SuperDicq @sun ok where are those free software people at and why aren't they building the shit for me that I want?
oh wait they're not slaves and we shouldn't treat them as such?????
also isn't your proprietary CPU making you anxious?
oh wait they're not slaves and we shouldn't treat them as such?????
also isn't your proprietary CPU making you anxious?
@feld@friedcheese.us @sun@shitposter.world
where are those free software people at and why aren't they building the shit for me that I want?What the fuck are you on about? You're literally using a crapton of free software right now probably that does exactly what you want.
@SuperDicq @sun what about other stuff I want like a web-controlled audiobook player that streams through mpd and icecast and automatically controls my Sonos speakers and after a set timeout stops the audiobook and plays a relaxing sleep sound for me all night?
Where's the open source solution to that?
oh wait there isn't so I've vibe coded my own solution and it fucking rocks
I have dozens of projects like this in the back of my head that I've always wanted but nobody made
Where's the open source solution to that?
oh wait there isn't so I've vibe coded my own solution and it fucking rocks
I have dozens of projects like this in the back of my head that I've always wanted but nobody made
@feld @SuperDicq yeah I am shitting out dozens of little utilities to accelerate tasks, liberating is definitely the correct word for it.
@feld@friedcheese.us @sun@shitposter.world And why didn't you write it yourself before?
I have a bunch of personal projects that I work on. It's actually a lot of having to use your brain you know.
@SuperDicq @sun @feld
>And why didn't you write it yourself before?
Because I'm not a programmer by day? Because I don't have the time nor knowledge to dump two evenings and maybe get something partially working?
>And why didn't you write it yourself before?
Because I'm not a programmer by day? Because I don't have the time nor knowledge to dump two evenings and maybe get something partially working?
@phnt@fluffytail.org @sun@shitposter.world @feld@friedcheese.us You're not born as a programmer. You can always become a programmer.
@SuperDicq @sun @feld I don't have the time to do that. I do systems administration, I need to learn whatever the industry throws at me to stay relevant. I have nearly zero interest or motivation to learn 3 different languages for multiple of my use cases. It simply isn't possible and kinda reads as self-entitled.
I would want to contribute more to Pleroma, yet I simply don't have enough brain power for that most of the time. It's like if I said you should learn to become a machinist, so you can work on your cars more. You can always become a machinist.
I would want to contribute more to Pleroma, yet I simply don't have enough brain power for that most of the time. It's like if I said you should learn to become a machinist, so you can work on your cars more. You can always become a machinist.
@phnt @feld @SuperDicq ai is good for contributing to pleroma, I think it's a slightly confusing codebase. not terrible but ai helps a lot for making checklist of everything needed when making changes
@sun @feld @SuperDicq It can work for AI, I've seen it work well with AI, and I've seen it fail hilariously with Pleroma and Elixir (see the URIEncoding module if you want an intelligence test case for AI). I don't write much code for Pleroma, I mostly just diagnose and fix bugs I find, help users and AI can somewhat help with that, but not much.
But first and foremost, I write programs and play with Pleroma 99% of the time for my personal interest and fun. It's my hobby. And vibe coding takes the fun out of it. The solving of a puzzle is what interests me.
But first and foremost, I write programs and play with Pleroma 99% of the time for my personal interest and fun. It's my hobby. And vibe coding takes the fun out of it. The solving of a puzzle is what interests me.
@phnt @SuperDicq @sun
> And vibe coding takes the fun out of it. The solving of a puzzle is what interests me.
solving the puzzle is what interests me too, but I don't savor the grind.
I submitted a fix to a Python project a few weeks ago after waiting over a month where nobody fixed my issue for me. I'm not super interested in Python, but I can do fairly basic things with it. Fixing the code wasn't the hard part as much as knowing how to properly write its tests for their test suite.
The LLM did it for me, and now I learned how the Python tests are meant to be written for this particular problem. It's not like I closed my eyes and refused to learn from the code in front of me. I do much better learning by seeing the actual solutions and breaking them down. It's far more efficient for me.
> And vibe coding takes the fun out of it. The solving of a puzzle is what interests me.
solving the puzzle is what interests me too, but I don't savor the grind.
I submitted a fix to a Python project a few weeks ago after waiting over a month where nobody fixed my issue for me. I'm not super interested in Python, but I can do fairly basic things with it. Fixing the code wasn't the hard part as much as knowing how to properly write its tests for their test suite.
The LLM did it for me, and now I learned how the Python tests are meant to be written for this particular problem. It's not like I closed my eyes and refused to learn from the code in front of me. I do much better learning by seeing the actual solutions and breaking them down. It's far more efficient for me.
@feld @SuperDicq @sun Yeah, I usually do some kind of ai-assisted writing when I'm in uncharted territory. Getting a second opinion on how something should probably work and/or how it could be simplified is always better than zero input. And when you have nobody else to ask/bother, you don't have much choice.
@sun @phnt @feld @SuperDicq lain saying it codes as good as them is an indictment of lain being a bad coder, at least until i see a coding model do an actually good job of something in person.
i've been seeing a lot of academic reports that the people who benefit most are simply bad at their jobs, and people who are very good use them very selectively or not at all. after dealing with both beads implementations being steaming piles of trash yesterday i'm not inspired
but i might still be willing to drop 10$ on a GLM sub for a month as one final "hate only in knowledge."
i've been seeing a lot of academic reports that the people who benefit most are simply bad at their jobs, and people who are very good use them very selectively or not at all. after dealing with both beads implementations being steaming piles of trash yesterday i'm not inspired
but i might still be willing to drop 10$ on a GLM sub for a month as one final "hate only in knowledge."
@icedquinn @phnt @feld @SuperDicq i'm better than it at typescript but its way better than me at verilog
@phnt @SuperDicq @feld @sun I'd come up with a more creative message to derail the conversation but I'm too lazy to. You guys drink any coffee lately?
@phnt @SuperDicq @sun
This. why would I spend hundreds of hours mastering something that I'll never use again? That I'll never be employed for? That I wouldn't *want* to be employed for?
Before: there's a bug in this Java program, but fuck that I have no interest in trying to figure that shit out Java is disgusting
Now: there's a bug in this Java program, and this tool will help me find the root cause very fast and save me from having to read thousands of pages of documentation about shit like the Maven build system. I can have this figured out in like 20 minutes.
If you're 20 years old you don't care that it will take you 2 years to become really proficient at Rust, you have no concept of time anyway
If you're 40 years old you know better than to commit yourself to something like that just for a one-off problem
This. why would I spend hundreds of hours mastering something that I'll never use again? That I'll never be employed for? That I wouldn't *want* to be employed for?
Before: there's a bug in this Java program, but fuck that I have no interest in trying to figure that shit out Java is disgusting
Now: there's a bug in this Java program, and this tool will help me find the root cause very fast and save me from having to read thousands of pages of documentation about shit like the Maven build system. I can have this figured out in like 20 minutes.
If you're 20 years old you don't care that it will take you 2 years to become really proficient at Rust, you have no concept of time anyway
If you're 40 years old you know better than to commit yourself to something like that just for a one-off problem
@phnt @feld @SuperDicq @sun systems admin is one of the worst jobs to use the "i won't learn to code excuse" considering half of unix administration is bash scripting.
@icedquinn @feld @SuperDicq @sun I write shell scripts and Python all the time, but turns out that asking a sysadmin to write C from scratch isn't that easy. I know sysadmins that write nothing and I'm an exception in that case, but it is still not my job to write JS webapps with beautiful frontends. That's what I mean.
@phnt @feld @SuperDicq @sun where we failed as a field is programming has been stuck in the 1970s forever. we briefly reached out in the 90s with stuff like clickteam and hypercard and the RAD stacks but we've fully regressed back to the 1970s and this makes me very sad.
you're not supposed to be writing C code these days you're supposed to be opening up your object browser, slapping some widgets together and writing a few message sends. this is the future xerox left us. and we just.. walked away.
you're not supposed to be writing C code these days you're supposed to be opening up your object browser, slapping some widgets together and writing a few message sends. this is the future xerox left us. and we just.. walked away.
@phnt @SuperDicq @feld @sun basically "i can write bad code faster with chatgpt" is like when ford said if people asked they would just want a faster horse.
everyone forgot we could also just use a plane.
everyone forgot we could also just use a plane.
@icedquinn @phnt @feld @SuperDicq the code is rapidly improving, in particular when you enforce testing on it so I tolerate it being less than great sometimes
@icedquinn @feld @SuperDicq @sun Languages hiding the inner workings from me is probably one of the biggest sources of frustration I have with most of them. Hiding features behind incomprehensible syntax sugar. Just let me write what I want, explicitly.
Sugar like
Sugar like
for i = 1:10:5 door whatever the fuck Python decided to do with list comprehensions is what drives me mad. I don't want 6 layers of abstraction just so I can drag elements on a screen to "write code". It's why I generally dislike high-level languages since they effectively obfuscate themselves.
printf(i)
end
@SuperDicq @feld opportunity cost. was writing other stuff
@SuperDicq @sun because I don't have enough time
you realize we only have so many years on this earth, right? If I wanted to become in expert in everything that intrigues me I'll be dead before I finish
I also enjoy doing other things, like taking my dog on walks or reading books or playing videogames or having s*x with my wife
If I devoted 24/7 of my energy to these tasks I'd be an insufferable incel shitposter, but thanks to this amazing technology I'm just a regular shitposter
you realize we only have so many years on this earth, right? If I wanted to become in expert in everything that intrigues me I'll be dead before I finish
I also enjoy doing other things, like taking my dog on walks or reading books or playing videogames or having s*x with my wife
If I devoted 24/7 of my energy to these tasks I'd be an insufferable incel shitposter, but thanks to this amazing technology I'm just a regular shitposter
@feld @SuperDicq seconding, AI also gives me more time to have sex with feld's wife
@sun @SuperDicq see, everyone wins
@feld @SuperDicq @sun > ok where are those free software people at and why aren't they building the shit for me that I want?
they are busy working on hurd, bro!
they are busy working on hurd, bro!
@feld @SuperDicq @sun Patiently waiting for the models to become cheap enough that I can replace missing features from open core projects, ehm, nginx.
@phnt @SuperDicq @sun I already know people doing that, it's going to absolutely crush that business model
@feld @phnt @SuperDicq @sun i think it's funny that vibe coding will make the 4 freedoms the FSF preaches about actually matter to the avg joe.
@phnt @feld @SuperDicq I know two people that have already done this a half dozen times, reimplemented paid features of open source projects
a bunch of projects are currently removing their test suites from their git repos because people are using the tests against their ai reimplementations
a bunch of projects are currently removing their test suites from their git repos because people are using the tests against their ai reimplementations
![๐๐๐[ร]โข](https://media.bsd.cafe/bsdmmedia01/accounts/avatars/115/004/535/892/913/622/original/2c6cd201d2d8fa13.jpg)
@sun @phnt @feld @SuperDicq sounds like something rather specific to anthropic admitting they doinked gcc's test suite
@icedquinn @phnt @SuperDicq @sun
> anthropic admitting they doinked gcc's test suite
yeah but who cares? Even Chris Lattner admitted he learned how to write LLVM/Clang by studying GCC
> Some have criticized CCC for learning from this prior art, but I find that ridiculous - I certainly learned from GCC when building Clang!
https://www.modular.com/blog/the-claude-c-compiler-what-it-reveals-about-the-future-of-software
> anthropic admitting they doinked gcc's test suite
yeah but who cares? Even Chris Lattner admitted he learned how to write LLVM/Clang by studying GCC
> Some have criticized CCC for learning from this prior art, but I find that ridiculous - I certainly learned from GCC when building Clang!
https://www.modular.com/blog/the-claude-c-compiler-what-it-reveals-about-the-future-of-software
@feld @icedquinn @SuperDicq @sun It is hilarious to see people complain about an LLM learning from previous code, yet the same people would have fraction of percent of their current knowledge if they didn't learn from another source.
@phnt @feld @SuperDicq @sun if you read the thread the context being replied to is *specifically* about projects revoking access to test harnesses because people might use them to reimplement gated VC features in the same way anthropic literally just documented they can do.
it's not a generalized argument.
it's not a generalized argument.
@phnt @feld @SuperDicq @sun they're cheap enough that there's free as in beer offers around, plenty of people launch opencode and do just that, or else there wouldn't be so much low effort spam around
nginx would be in a much better place if actual development wasn't gated behind nginx plus by f5 on purpose
nginx would be in a much better place if actual development wasn't gated behind nginx plus by f5 on purpose
@SuperDicq @feld there are like five unmerged delta chat gateway extensions for openclaw on github but I am using delta chat today because in one hour openclaw wrote one for itself and it works perfect.