Why is Gnosticism so spiritually compelling? I am quite certain it is completely wrong, but it is fascinating and beautiful.
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@sun I love it because It's pretty funny to have a direct answer when an atheist smugly asks you who created god.
@sun certainly a source of funny words. til Monad is a thing from gnosticism too
@sun This fuckin guy
@sun It's the Gremlins 2 of (early) Christian religions
Goal𝓯𝓻𝓮𝓪𝓴𝓮𝓻 
He's just a silly lil guy.
@Goalkeeper @sun it clearly has all the answers
@sun Because it's clearly correct, my friend. The law of Christ is written on the hearts of all men with a soul, and the desire to return to that which we all came is innate. Let's all return home together, away from this hell that we call Earth. 
It's like Christianity but with your favorite mods installed.
It gives a fulfilling answer to the "why is everything so messed up" question while offering a way out of this mess through the acquisition of knowledge. It gives hope that if you can see through the construct of the Demiurge that you can be freed from reviving in the Black Cube again.
@coolboymew @Goalkeeper there are gnostic texts where jesus said women had to transform into a man before they could advance in enlightenment, it was literally impossible for a woman to do so
@sun I see it as the inevitable result of applying Greek philosophy to a Jewish worldview. I'm obviously biased here but the way I see it, the Jewish worldview (which Christianity inherits) gives God an anthropomorphic personality and an ego, and the spirit fundamentally recognises this as wrong - which is why the open secret of Judaism is that their god isn't really GOD, but rather just "their" god that they need to circumvent in order to live properly. This disconnect between the "demiurge" (the Judeo-Christian god) and God (as in Logos, Brahman, Olodumare etc.) creates an innate striving for the "real thing" and a feeling of wanting to escape one to find the other.
In short, it offers an escape from a worldview that fundamentally makes you submit to an unjust authority, while offering you the higher philosophy that can only flourish in the absence of a controlling anthropomorphic god.
Tl;dr: The soul inherently knows there's something very wrong in the Judeo-Christian worldview, and Gnosticism offers those already inducted in it a path beyond it.
In short, it offers an escape from a worldview that fundamentally makes you submit to an unjust authority, while offering you the higher philosophy that can only flourish in the absence of a controlling anthropomorphic god.
Tl;dr: The soul inherently knows there's something very wrong in the Judeo-Christian worldview, and Gnosticism offers those already inducted in it a path beyond it.
@druid I do believe there are almost innate difficulties in gnostic thought on its own, but I agree with you completely that this is a real tension that manifests
Gnosticism is inherently incompatible with Christianity.
@Owl @ceo_of_monoeye_dating a lot of people disagree!
Either all of what God has created is good or all matter is wicked and is constructed by a false god.
@sun There are, and my personal feeling is that the demiurge the Gnostics identify (and so resent) is just a particularly bothersome Asura that enjoys CLAIMING it created and has dominion over the world, but like the rest of my take that's me speaking as a Dharmist.
Another thing I find particularly troublesome in a lot of Gnostic branches is the focus on Jesus. Early Gnosticism is all about anointing YOURSELF as the Christ (in fact, "Christ" was originally a Gnostic title) in order to be master of your own qualia, but a lot of what survives after the Christian purges of Gnostic material focuses on Jesus as "THE Christ" instead, just like Christianity does. Jesus Christ as "The Way" and all that. I've even seen (prolific) Gnostic material that claims Jesus as the only pneumatic. It's sad when you come across a Gnostic text called something like "THE TRUE AND HIGHMOST REVELATION OF SETH" that turns out to be a lot of babble about Jesus.
Another thing I find particularly troublesome in a lot of Gnostic branches is the focus on Jesus. Early Gnosticism is all about anointing YOURSELF as the Christ (in fact, "Christ" was originally a Gnostic title) in order to be master of your own qualia, but a lot of what survives after the Christian purges of Gnostic material focuses on Jesus as "THE Christ" instead, just like Christianity does. Jesus Christ as "The Way" and all that. I've even seen (prolific) Gnostic material that claims Jesus as the only pneumatic. It's sad when you come across a Gnostic text called something like "THE TRUE AND HIGHMOST REVELATION OF SETH" that turns out to be a lot of babble about Jesus.
@Owl @ceo_of_monoeye_dating the jewish god isn't really god
How does this not make Christianity and Gnosticism incompatible?
@Owl @ceo_of_monoeye_dating I gave the absolute most incompatible version, there's lighter versions. I mean, even in mainstream christianity, satan is the prince of this world (including matter)
@sun for the smartest the devil crafts much more intricate traps 
@sun @Owl @ceo_of_monoeye_dating it pretty much has to be. Salvation can not be your own working and Christ's, and without the need of salvation, what is Christ? It is on this point that gnosticism and Christianity are irreconcilable.
You cannot both save yourself and have need of Christ, exactly. Christ is the liberating factor in Christianity. Not your acquisition of knowledge.
@idiot @hakui part of the reason I am quite sure that gnosticism is wrong is that materiality cannot actually be framed as completely evil, there is too much beauty in it and I am not convinced at all by "well it's just a pale reflection of spiritual beauty". Also we know from science that when you cut off sensory stimulation from a human brain, that it goes insane. We need materiality. We are dual beings fundamentally in our nature.
@idiot @sun >see bobr
>excited
it's that simple, most people decide to spent their time fretting about work and debt and other social constructs instead
bobr.mp4
>excited
it's that simple, most people decide to spent their time fretting about work and debt and other social constructs instead
bobr.mp4
@mischievoustomato @anemone it didn't survive because you can't corral a bunch of people taught to think for themselves, and divide infinitely with every disagreement. but you can corral sheep that you force conformity of belief on
@Owl @jeremiah @sun @ceo_of_monoeye_dating but even in christianity there is gnosis, they just call it salvation
@protos @Owl @sun @ceo_of_monoeye_dating they're not the same thing. gnosis is self-salvation through knowledge. Christianity is salvation through the grace of God. They're irreconcilable positions.
The only way "gnostic" fits in front of Christian is with a great deal of bending of Christianity to the point that it isn't, like the Moonies or so.
The only way "gnostic" fits in front of Christian is with a great deal of bending of Christianity to the point that it isn't, like the Moonies or so.
@jeremiah @Owl @sun @ceo_of_monoeye_dating unless you actually read the new testament
<kjv /knowledge
>
Romans 10:1-3 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.
<kjv /knowledge
>
Romans 10:1-3 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.
@protos @Owl @sun @ceo_of_monoeye_dating
The knowledge referred to, for example, in 2nd TImothy, is knowledge of salvation through Christ.
Pulling verses out of context and suggesting that they endorse gnosticism requires not reading verses like John 14:6 which explicity reject the idea of gnosis/self-salvation.
The knowledge referred to, for example, in 2nd TImothy, is knowledge of salvation through Christ.
Pulling verses out of context and suggesting that they endorse gnosticism requires not reading verses like John 14:6 which explicity reject the idea of gnosis/self-salvation.
@jeremiah @protos @Owl @ceo_of_monoeye_dating the mistake you guys are all making are
1. treating gnosticism like one thing
2. not considering it can be present in degrees.
1. treating gnosticism like one thing
2. not considering it can be present in degrees.
@sun @Owl @ceo_of_monoeye_dating @protos
1. I explicitly said gnosticism was a category of beliefs, not "one thing."
2. By degrees sidesteps the issue of essence. What is it ESSENTIALLY. IF you have two things that are contradictory (Christianity and Gnosticism), it is ultimately one or the other because the two are irreconcilable, it cannot be both.
To say "present in degrees" doesn't really define anything usefully.
Finally, in 1 Timothy 6:20-21, St. Paul explicitly rejects gnosticism by name (though usually translated into English as "science" and "knowledge":) "O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge,” for by professing it some have swerved from the faith."
1. I explicitly said gnosticism was a category of beliefs, not "one thing."
2. By degrees sidesteps the issue of essence. What is it ESSENTIALLY. IF you have two things that are contradictory (Christianity and Gnosticism), it is ultimately one or the other because the two are irreconcilable, it cannot be both.
To say "present in degrees" doesn't really define anything usefully.
Finally, in 1 Timothy 6:20-21, St. Paul explicitly rejects gnosticism by name (though usually translated into English as "science" and "knowledge":) "O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge,” for by professing it some have swerved from the faith."
@jeremiah @Owl @ceo_of_monoeye_dating @protos alright sorry on the first part, but still you introduce platonism to christianity and you get some gnostic character and you can't extract it from what people believe today